Let's Put This To Bed It's an old discussion that has been going on for as long as I can remember and I don't understand why it won’t die. Allowing/teaching your dog to sit will not ruin his show stack. The whole "sit" vs "stack" thing is a red herring. It's just not an issue, and I'm going to show you why. Doppelgangers We show all of our dogs in conformation, agility and rally at the same time with excellent results in all three venues. What it boils down to is this. There are two ways to prepare a dog for the show ring: The traditional approach is a reductive one - all behaviors other than standing are corrected until the dog is left with only one option - to stand. So the finished behavior is "not sitting or moving," which is very different from "stacking" but on some level it achieves the same thing - the dog does not sit or move.
Looks Can Be deceiving The "stacking" and "not sitting" behaviors are an example of what I call behavior homophones. The two behaviors look similar as the dogs are both "standing," but in reality they could not be more different. One is “Not Moving For Fear of Correction” and the other is “Stacking.” Apples and oranges. And “Stacking” is a MUCH more direct route to a dog who shows as if he owns the ground he stands on. Once the dog understands "stack" as a behavior, the fact that he also happens to know the behavior "sit" is not going to make him any more or less likely to "stack" when cued to do so. Baby Steps It just breaks my heart to see people bring puppies to show handling classes and dog shows and correct them for sitting or moving. There's no reason for it, ever. I think people should relax more with puppies, understand that they're not going to show like adults, and be patient with the process. Consider this video of Daphne (the bitch taking BOV at Montgomery in the above video) showing in sweepstakes at 6 months old:
As wild as puppies may act, their egos are very fragile. They need a lot of reinforcement to keep them showing like a house on fire, and that's what you need for the show ring. So when I let small imperfections (such as an occasional sit) in my puppies’ performances go in favor of building up their love for showing, it’s not because I'm a “nice” person. It’s because I want to win ;o). This whole blog began because in Puppy Culture we teach a manding behavior of sitting to our puppies when they're four weeks old. The question comes up again and again on our Facebook discussion group of whether this is confusing for puppies destined for the show ring. Not only is there not confusion with sitting and show stacking, the Puppy Culture Communication Trinity (which includes a chapter on Manding) creates incredibly focused and operant show dogs with rock-solid attitude. It's that sureness that comes from very early reinforcement (4 weeks, in our case) that brings the fire to their performance in the breed ring. Again, some of the confusion is that Manding is not “sit on command,” nor is it a “rule” that you hand down to the puppy. It's a forward communication from the puppy to you. Every minute you're in the show ring, it's a dialog with your dog. The more you open up lines of communications and teach puppies to be operant, the less they're going to "speak" out of turn by offering a behavior that you don't want. It's counterintuitive for most people, but teaching our puppies to be creative and reach out to us with many different behaviors will lead to a better and more reliable his show stack. If you are not familiar with Manding and the Puppy Culture program, you can see more video and information about Puppy Culture HERE. Seeing Is Believing So many people asked for detailed direction on how to teach a puppy a show stack that we did live broadcasts of show stack training with our last litter. The live sessions were so well received that we made them available for purchase here: Killer Free Stacks. Here is a little clip from those sessions, taken when the puppies were 5 and 6 weeks old: UPDATE: 2022 - our original "Killer Free Stack" puppies are now 7 years old, and three are US champions and two (Bijou and Naboo) have continued on to their Grand Championship. We now have two more training films that cover the entire show training process from 5 weeks old to finished champion. Watch the whole series here! Here's a clip from Stack and Deliver: We're already on to our third generation of champions and group placing dogs from this litter - and every single puppy both mands and stacks <3. Referenced Courses and Titles
27 Comments
Kim
7/18/2015 02:01:50 pm
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Shelley Erdman
7/20/2015 09:23:37 am
Yay! I'm so glad you posted this! I hope this helps do away with the never ending standing on blocks or other devices people do. I love that you explained it in straight forward plain terms! Good job!!
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8/16/2015 05:41:58 am
Shelley, thanks! Old beliefs die hard but we're working every day to change people's minds ;o).
Betsy
7/18/2015 02:27:05 pm
I LIKE this training
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cheryl
7/19/2015 07:34:13 am
This is the single most reason I so admire and respect how you train your dogs- at a Pigs Fly seminar you were discussing agility and you said, "Not breaking and staying may look the same to us, but to the dog they can be very different behaviors, depending upon how they've been taught." That was a profound "aha!" moment for me. I never forgot it and I always try to remember that when I'm working with my dogs.
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7/19/2015 09:47:45 am
Cheryl, I'm so happy to hear that! Getting people to understand that in their bones is one of the biggest challenges I have as a teacher :o).
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Jane Killion
7/20/2015 12:25:47 pm
Thank you!
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7/20/2015 10:18:47 am
Glad you clarified the sit vs the show stack. I can't wait to get started, pups are 24 hours old so tomorrow we start our Puppy Culture 12 week teaching program !!! Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
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Jane Killion
7/20/2015 12:26:20 pm
Thank YOU for making a difference for your puppies and their people :o).
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Pat Burgee
7/20/2015 12:19:34 pm
Absolutely,I've been saying for years that if you can heel ,sit ,down ,
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Jane Killion
7/20/2015 12:28:11 pm
Absolutely, Pat! Especially important for dogs with a lot of heart, like ACDs!
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p
7/20/2015 12:34:58 pm
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Darlene Chirolas
7/22/2015 12:13:52 pm
Hi Jane. Nice article and video.
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Jane Killion
7/23/2015 05:19:26 am
Yes, many times. For that you need When Pigs Fly - read the whole thing, but pay special attention to the "Light a Fire With ICE" section. Will tell you everything you need to know about working with a dog who is not food motivated :o).
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Darlene Chirolas
7/24/2015 04:15:00 am
Thank you.
Brandi
7/24/2015 06:35:32 pm
Thank you so much for this post! It will help me a ton! I have a five month old female who I bought on a show contract. She is a sweet, happy puppy but can be a bit shy when certain people approach her. Not fearful exactly, just sort of assumes a submissive posture like she wants to crawl into their lap. Do you have any advice on building her confidence up? Obviously shrinking as a judge approaches isn't the most desirable thing for the show ring. :) I want her to have fun and I'd like to also, but I also think my breeder expects a lot from her and I'm wondering how this little shy streak will work out as she matures.
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Brandi
7/24/2015 06:40:20 pm
I should have said-my breeder is as helpful as can be from a distance, I live in AZ, she's in northern CA and I already feel like I'm constantly bombarding her with questions. Also-I'm trying to do the obvious, lots of socialization. Hardly a day has gone by without a little trip somewhere for her to meet people and other dogs, since I got her at 9 weeks old. I'm going to try for the occasional handling classes but unfortunately we have a couple of hours drive to the nearest city with a kennel club/handling classes.
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Jane Killion
8/16/2015 05:46:20 am
Hey Brandi, this is question that I can't really answer easily without seeing the dog and knowing a lot more about her. Yes, handling classes will be key but remember that you need to advocate for your dog - a lot of handling instructors can be heavy handed and make things worse - bottom line, if you train the behaviors well and make sure she has no bad experiences, she will lean to stand her ground and show like a pro :o).
Valerie Rappleyea
7/25/2015 06:36:58 pm
I am thankful you are sharing your "puppy culture" training methods with us! I was told that same thing about not teaching dogs to sit because it is a show dog! I can say I agree 100% .Well done!
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Rebecca Waters
2/9/2016 08:48:12 pm
I love watching your videos and reading your articles, with a new arrival coming soon in a new breed for us, moving from Danes to ACD's, we will surely be signing up for the online videos...I notice you primarily clicker train, we do not clicker train in our home, all though I have been training, working in behavior, and as a veterinary technician for a very long time, clickers are completely unsuccessful in our home and it has nothing to do with the Dogs...it drives our cats insane and interferes with my Husband who sleeps during the day for his overnight job. All that being said, do you find a verbal marker like a sharp YES! to be a suitable substitute?
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Annie
10/24/2016 10:20:43 pm
Rebecca, have you considered clicking with your tongue?
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Susan Vennerholm
2/5/2018 03:25:05 pm
Jane; I'm so glad I found this post; it helped me to understand an issue I'm having with my dogs. I have just adopted two lovely senior Smooth Collies, both of whom are Champions... ie; well-trained to stack beautifully. They are both getting treated by a local rehab vet for old dog physio problems (spinal compression, hip weakness, etc.) and I'm supposed to do specific stretching and strengthening exercises with them. Some of these involve sitting or laying down to access the proper positioning... and being that they are practiced show dogs, sitting currently seems to be off the menu. And, typical Collie stubbornness means they won't sit with the typical training method of treat to nose, lifting it up and back, to encourage them to sit back and down, and, a gentle push on the bum means a strong pushback, so that cheap shortcut won't work either. Can you give me any advice on how to un-train these fabulous old ladies out of stacking, so they are more willing to sit? Thank you.
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I have a 12 month old English Springer Spaniel that I purchased at 7 months. She has two points and won 2 puppy sweepsteaks only being shown twice. She was not shown since 9 months of age. I want to get her ready to show this Spring and I find her posting her front legs and I can't correct this. Her free stack is perfect. Do you have any advice?
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11/5/2018 01:51:54 pm
I am a AKC Mini American Shepherds Breeder and I have Show in conformation and I really love this program. Lori
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Vanessa
7/13/2019 03:05:50 pm
Thank you so very much for this!! This page makes me so happy. I live in the middle-of-nowhere Germany and there are a lot of old teaching methods. I have always used clicker training and no corrections for my boy, and he has an automatic stand, but it would be so much easier if I trained a stack. We do obedience and would love to do auto sits for obedience and auto stack for showing. Let's see if we can do that with your help!
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AuthorJane Messineo Lindquist (Killion) is the director of "Puppy Culture: The Powerful First Twelve Weeks That Can Shape Your Puppies' Future" as well as the author of "When Pigs Fly: Training Success With Impossible Dogs." Archives
November 2022
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